L4-5 Charite ADR Stenum

[treefrog]

Yes, thanks Havanna for bringing John's story to this site. I am deeply sorry for John's family and friends, at their loss.

And Mark, thanks so much for explaining how these surgeries may have gone wrong. It really is inexcusable that a surgeon would be so careless with someone's life.

I do have a question, as I remember in one of Dr. J's posts, that showed his disc as being placed upside down by Dr. Bertagnoli. How is that different, and could Dr. J's current problems be caused by this configuration?

[mmglobal]

Cathy, go back and read the explanations on Justin's thread and this thread. See if you can get your head wrapped around the angles, forces, etc. I don't believe that being upside-down in John's case would have had this result if the prosthesis was placed appropraitely, towards the back of the disc space.

The Prodisc is very different from the Charite, with much better 'primary fixation', that is the fixation that occurs upon implantion, as opposed to secondary fixation that occurs after bony ingrowth into the coating. The keel provides much more surface area for primary and secondary fixation and since it's a press-fit, it's also very tight and resists migration. Even so, it too should be implanted towards the rear of the disc space, as shown in Justin's images.

On my last client with Dr. Zeegers, he explained why the discs will not move. It went somethin like:

Picture working on the wheel of a truck. You jack it up and place a large stone under the suspension and then lower the jack. You can try to pull out the stone but there is no way to pull it out.

In John's case, picture that you lower the jack so the suspension is resting on the very edge of the stone instead of on the middle of the stone. If you pull it in one direction it will be impossible to move it. However, if you pull it away from the side where it's resting on the edge, the forces will want to spit out the stone like a tiddley-wink or an olive pit. Putting the disc in upside-down (in this case) makes it like the truck is on a hill.


Not all implantations for ANY surgeon are all perfect. There are reasons that make some surgeries more difficult than others. However, looking at so, so many patient films, I see surgeons that have consistently excellent output and I see surgeons that have consistently mediocre output. I rarely see surgeons that have such a steady stream of cases that fall into this "should never have happened" category of complication that would have been avoided by a technically sound surgery.

All of this comes along with the appropriate "I'm not a doctor" qualifiers. However, I have observed many, many surgeries and have probably seen a wider variety and volume of spine arthroplasty cases done that 99% of the surgeon population in the world. (One of my favorite stories is the anecdote I tell just above the picture in the OR with Buetttner-Janz and Bitan in this post: Dr's Bitan and Buettner-Janz in the OR).

When I talk about observing surgeries, what do I mean? Here are pictures from Willie Beeson's book, in the OR at Stenum (I'm the tall one!):



Again, I'm sorry that all this comes out so strongly. It's hard for me as I become emotionally vested in so many cases, to see people suffer unnecessarily. Take everything I say with a grain of salt. Do your homework and make informed decisions.

Mark

[Terry Allen Blackburn]

You do make the appropriate disclaimer Mark about not being a doctor. Stenum will never be able to come on to the forums, nor will any other competent or, even questionable surgeon, be allowed to discuss any patient care, surgery, consultations, etc. due to patient confidentiality. So the only thing that we will ever get is your personal feelings, and we will never know the other side of any of these stories. Not to discount anything that you do here but your biases are very apparent.

I do hear you loud and clear, to do as others have suggested as well, which is research, research, research.

I could never draw any conclusions from any of this posting due to a lack of much information from many sources. As it is, we will never get any of this information, so we can all speculate what went wrong and never really know.

I am very sorry for the families loss.

Terry Newton

[Maria]

Havanna,
Thank you for posting about your friend John's passing and please thank his wife for allowing you to post the information here that helped further bring this discussion out in the open and make it more of an educational experience for those considering ADR/spine surgery.

Thank you Mark for further educating us and for stating things as you do.

[Katie]

I second that sentiment.

I do have a question though that I think is relevant. We have all heard about several of these unfortunate surgeries in 04/05. Has anyone had solid evidence of anything similar happening since then, especially in the last two years?

I have heard nothing but wonderful things from at least a dozen recent patients, who had everything from one level to stem cell work done along with multi-level ADR. The results with all of these people have been nothing but amazing. I keep calling and asking them how life is going, and it's certainly better than mine.

Just asking.................

[trkdoc714]

I agree with Terry but I'm more blunt. For whatever reason, this poor man's passing from a drug related problem and what his family has had to endure has unfortunately been turned and twisted into more bashing of a truly great surgeon. This negative marketing of medical tourist companies really does interfere with people that are sincerely looking for help and advice. I doubt that they care if anyone gets commission on the surgeries or treatments as long as they find relief.

This particular thread has extremely bad timing. I had just left for Stenum for a 2 level ADR when my wife read this thread. She has been a wreck. Due to this negative marketing technique, she didn't know if I was coming home in a wheelchair or a body bag. This is an extremely irresponsible and juvenile act on his part. My wife called the hospital while I was in the recovery room. They brought a phone to me so I could talk to her and ease her worries. Dr. Ritter-Lang was at my bedside when this happened and told us both that the surgery went well.

Mark. You claim you don't use this site as a marketing tool for your medical tourist business. You most definitely do to a great extent. Why don't you disclose exactly your motivations, your medical credentials and education. You may as well also disclose your commission per patient with Dr. Bertgnoli and others as well. Let's really get to the root of all of this. I think your "noble" facade will be seen for what it truly is if you finally admit to using this site to sell, sell, sell. I wonder if you would have this vicious attitude toward Stenum had they hired you when tried to be employed here. I guess that ethics exam was a tough one, eh?

By the way, my L4/L5 and L5/S1 Mavericks are well placed and I haven't had any serious pain meds since 48 hours post surgery. The entire staff here at Stenum has been terrific and very helpful. If anyone would like first hand details, I'd be happy to answer any and all questions. Additionally, I do not get any renumeration for relaying my experience at Stenum Hospital nor do the other four patients that had the exact great experience I have had with Stenum.

One last thing. Mark, do not ever call my house again. Each time I've mentioned Stenum in a post either here or on ADR Support, you seemed it your duty to call me and try to sell me away from them. If you feel compelled to apologize for the anguish you put my wife through, do it by discontinuing this Amway marketing practice. By the way, I checked. Stenum doesn't perform ADR on dogs. Perhaps you should take yours to Dr. Bertgnoli?

Bob Threlkel at yahoo.com

[Cindylou]

trkdoc714, I am so happy for you that your surgery went so well. Bottom line, that's what we all want to hear. Results. Successful results. I will pray that pain free days surround you, in the days and months ahead, while you heal from your surgery. Of course, we all want to make the "right" decision as to where we go and who we pick for a surgeon. Who knowingly wants to pick the wrong surgeon, or the surgeon with a very high failure rate? Obviously, no one. This is the tricky business for we spine sufferers, who on top of being miserably in pain, have to buck up and do endless hours of research so that we can make an informed decision. I can even understand your lashing out at Mark, because who else is speaking so strongly against Stenum? And he has the platform, this community, right? But here's where I have to differ, so please hear me out. When Mark flew out for the observation of my most recent surgery, I did not pay him one dime. Fact. He flew out on a wing and a prayer, because he really wanted to see what this Dr. Stark had up his sleeve, in regards to SI Joint Fusion, and the future this might hold for numerous failed back syndrome folks like myself and so many others who are not living the pain free life they are so desperately seeking. Fact. This community was born of love and compassion for our fellow man. My belief and conclusion. Now, here's the kicker we all need to pay attention to: does Mark need to make a living, like everyone else?? You betcha. After speaking with Mark in person, I can testify that this is how Global Patient Network was born. So he could attempt to carve out a living, doing what he does best, helping fellow spine patients find relief from their pain. Is Mark rich from this new career? Hardly. At best, he is breaking even. If I were Mark I would be very offended that you would accuse him of taking kick backs from Dr. Bertagnoli. Outrageous accusation. Absolutely not true. If Mark is guilty of anything, it is caring too much and having seen too much from all the surgeries he has had the good fortune to observe. Yes, he is merely speaking from his experience and observations. Just remember, HE HAS SEEN ALOT. I believe he sees it as a moral duty to comment on what he has seen take place at Stenum. So now he is guilty of having a conscience. Could Stenum have turned around over these past 4-5 years in their practice? Absolutely. That's why it is up to us, in the final hour, to make the best, informed decisions we can for our care. Happy healing to you, trkdoc714. May the force be with you!!