Go Back   ISPINE.ORG Forum > Main forums > iSpine
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

iSpine Discuss what does dessicated actually mean with discs? in the Main forums forums; When the MRI scans say you have dessicated discs - what does that actually mean? Is there some kind of chemical/...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2007, 10:34 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 34
Default what does dessicated actually mean with discs?

When the MRI scans say you have dessicated discs - what does that actually mean? Is there some kind of chemical/structural change inside the discs - or does it just mean the disc height is lost or its bulging - or does it mean they can see that they've dried out or some other affect like that?

thanks
Rob
__________________
snowboarding injury 1997 landed on head, some subluxation of cervical vertebrae no surgery, some ongoing neck and shoulder pain but bearable.

surfing injury 2004 - transient paralysis from neck down for 15 seconds, resolved fully - herniated c5/c6 disc plus some bulging at c3/4/5. Initially had dermatome pain after injury which resolved - general parasthesia in arms/legs was fairly mild after injury but has been worsening.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2007, 03:04 PM
mmglobal's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,511
Default

Rob,

It's all of the above, and it's also a chicken and egg question.

Is the disc dehydrated because the chemical structure changed? (You'll hear a lot about proteoglycans in a scientific discussion of healthy vs. unhealthy disc nucleus.) Or, has the chemical structure changed because the disc became dehydrated. Endplates becoming 'clogged' and not passing nutrients will cause it to become dehydrated. Annular tears change the exchange of fluid and nutrients and causes a local anflammatory response... there are many things that work in concert. I believe that there are many processes that may be responsible... some injury... some genetic... some have to do with lifestyle and stresses (like injury, but without the big event... microtrauma over years of pounding.) For most of us it's probably all of the above.

One of the more interesting things about what I do is that I spend so much time in the OR, I've been able to closely examine nucleus tissue in all different stages of degeneration in many dozens of procedures. You would not believe the difference. Also, the nucleus tissue after a variety of procedures (SED, IDET, biologic disc injections, disc prolotherapy and others), all feels different. Very interesting stuff... I'll post more later.... gotta run now.

Mark
__________________
1997 MVA
2000 L4-5 Microdiscectomy/laminotomy
2001 L5-S1 Micro-d/lami
2002 L4-S1 Charite' ADR - SUCCESS!
2009 C3-C4, C5-C6-C7, T1-T2 ProDisc-C Nova
Summer 2009, more bad thoracic discs!
Life After Surgery Website
President: Global Patient Network, Inc.
Founder: www.iSpine.org
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2007, 04:19 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,405
Default dessicated discs

My MRIs say dessicated discs L3-L5S1 with L5S1 being the most dessicated and one goes as far as to say fibrotic at L5S1. Dried out... tho Mark gets to see it all, all stages which must be very very cool~ I mean cool to be in OR and learning/seeing all the ongoing stages of the disc's life/demise (and other structures).

Don't have me guys, I used to work in Neurosurgery and have a natural interest such things~
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2007, 07:15 PM
dshobbies's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,596
Default

Cool, very cool?

For me, the color - blood red - belongs on a canvas. Seeing it in person, moving this and that out of the way, or even describing disc material as crab meat, makes me want to - well, let's just say I have to skim over some posts.

To each his own, or my personal favorite - whatever tweeks your gourd!

Hoping everyone gets the chance to tweek their gourd, Dale
__________________
3 level Prodisc adr S1-L3, Oct 12, 2005
Dr. B in Bogen, Germany
Severe nerve damage in left leg, still working on it
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2007, 11:11 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: arizona
Posts: 256
Default

I don't know if my gourd's been tweeked but my interest has been piqued!
Mark, please do expand on the difference in nuclear material with the different procedures!
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 03-30-2007, 03:16 AM
mmglobal's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,511
Default

Readers under 18 or with a weak stomach should change the channel now. The images we are about to describe may be quite disturbing.

Remember that these are my 'layperson impressions' and what I perceive may be completely incorrect.

I'm very sorry, but the crab meat analogy is very valid. (I did serve crab salad at one of my GPN gatherings, but I don't think Dale was there. Good thing!)

I've only seen a few relatively healthy discs removed. They were in the middle of long constructs with some evidence of degeneration or instability, that made it unreasonable to leave them out of the surgical plan. The difference in appearance of the nucleus material is remarkable. Very white... very fluffy, very moist. (Jokes about balsamic dressing deleted.) In general... just very healthy looking... good structure...

The more and more degenerated... the more those qualities are gone. What was bright white is now dingy looking... cream colored or yellowed. What was fluffy and moist is now stringy, tough and dehydrated. The worse the disc, the stringer and tougher the nucleus material seems.

Discs that have been IDET'ed or Thermal Annuloplastied have appeared to be BBQ'ed. Some of the nucleus and annulus tissue has been cooked. The tissue is much darker... even brown. Fluid from the disc has appeared brown. I've seen one disc that had both treatments and it was the most cooked of all I've seen. (Note that I make no assumptions about the performance of the tissue. It may be that a successful procedure will address pain generators and there is no lasting effect of the bbq'ed tissue. I'm just noting the appearance of tissues I've seen.)

The disc that had the 'disc sealant' was in a relatively young man and not too severely degenerated. The structure of the nucleus material was different from any other disc I'd seen. It was mushy. It had no integrity. It was very moist... possibly some injectant still inside the disc? I don't know, but the appearance of healthy disc tissue was completely gone. (I don't know how this effects the performance of the tissue... I'm just noting that it appeared to be very unlike normal tissue.)
__________________
1997 MVA
2000 L4-5 Microdiscectomy/laminotomy
2001 L5-S1 Micro-d/lami
2002 L4-S1 Charite' ADR - SUCCESS!
2009 C3-C4, C5-C6-C7, T1-T2 ProDisc-C Nova
Summer 2009, more bad thoracic discs!
Life After Surgery Website
President: Global Patient Network, Inc.
Founder: www.iSpine.org
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2007, 02:18 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: arizona
Posts: 256
Default

Thanks, Mark, for the info. It certainly makes you wonder about the "lesser" procedures. And it sounds like the crab meat analogy is very apt--but you've changed my perception of crab salad forever!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT. The time now is 01:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.