My 3 mo X ray - Discs tilted all over the place

[Kathy]

I have no idea how to read x-rays. I do know mine doesn't look like that; but that doesn't mean anything. I would be very interested to know what is going on. Who is doing your follow-up? If it is Dr. Zigler, ask him what he thinks.

Keep us updated,
Kathy

[steve55]

kathy, the tx back institute wouldn't see me due to the ole "we don't do follow ups with other surgeons patients".They said due to legal reasons. So I just went back to dr Peloza's office. Dr Peloza's pain mgt doc was surprised when I told him that, just his expression of disgust and lameness said it all. LOL. No kidding, if only I could have snapped a pic of his facial expression.LOL. He said he only knows of one other doc who is like that, but from reading the boards, it seems many docs are like that. What the heck, some docs have egos and get their feelings hurt that you didn't let then do the surgury . Well that's my guess, of course they hide behind the lame excuse that they will expose themseves to getting sued.

[Katie]

I was told beforehand that if I was planning on seeing an 'outside' doctor, to be prepared for the local surgeons to refuse to treat me if something went wrong. When I pushed and asked if they would indeed refuse to see me, I was told that this would be illegal, but be prepared to have less than enthusiastic treatment.

And I have to look at outside surgeons because I cannot get anyone to see me in a reasonable length of time locally...within a year. Imagine what the wait time would be if they followed through with their 'advice'.

Seems like it is cross border discrimination

[Maria]

Steve,
Did I just read another post about how great you're feeling?? All-right! So you're discs look a bit tilted and here and there~ as long as you feel good and there's nothing really wrong w/the discs placement or how they're sitting, what they're doing~ it's seems like how you feel is what's most important not how you look

Really glad to read how well you're doing

[Kathy]

That's weird that the won't see you, I had surgery in Florida and they are doing all my follow up.

[steve55]

Originally Posted by Kathy Earhart

That's weird that the won't see you, I had surgery in Florida and they are doing all my follow up.

That's because they are participating in your disc's study : )

[steve55]

Originally Posted by Maria

Steve,
Did I just read another post about how great you're feeling?? All-right! So you're discs look a bit tilted and here and there~ as long as you feel good and there's nothing really wrong w/the discs placement or how they're sitting, what they're doing~ it's seems like how you feel is what's most important not how you look

Really glad to read how well you're doing

Completely agree. : ) I was only concerned about the long term implications,...i.e. Stress on facets etc.

[Kathy]

Yeah, I guess the trial thing is why the agreed to keep seeing me. I am surprised there is not an ADR dr in the DFW area who would be willing to do your follow-up. You would think that since Dr. B is widely known in the spinal world, that they wouldn't have a problem with it. What hospital is Dr B out of? Is it Stenum? Alphaklinik? ProSpine?

I agree about if you are feeling fine now; but would worry about long term implications. These look similar to the x-rays shown in the horror stories about Stenum in months past. The one lady in a wheelchair (can't remember her name), said she felt great at first. Then, the guy, John I think?, that had a bad experience (Mark commented on the poor placement of his). What do you think Mark? It doesn't look right to me?

[Kathy]

Found those threads, and the before x-ray, I can't really tell anything was wrong; but it shows the progression. L4-5 Charite ADR Stenum

Here is the other one:
L4-5 & L5-S1 Chartie Stenum - kc0iet

On another question. Have you/did you follow all the post surgery orders? Not sure the exact ones for cervical; but for lumbar it was no bending, twisting, lifting, etc. Did you fall or anything? Just curious, as I am terrified of my discs moving out of place. I am always relieved to see my new images, to know everything is where it is supposed to be. Oh, do you have any of your earlier images? Do they look like this? Just curious.

Oh, just read this in the old post, what Mark said (mmglobal) regarding the discs being gone, which takes the pain away; but is still not a 'success'. Here, I am copying and posting a portion of that post, as he explained it better than I can. (underlining mine)

Originally Posted by mmglobal

"First, notice the angulation of the Charite’ plates on the first picture. The implant is not centered well. This is causing the upper plate to ‘fall off’, lower on the left side of the image. This demonstrates one of the problems with mobile core devices. When this occurs, the core is pushed to the extreme right and stays there. That increases the angulation and increases the forces that push the core more off center in the wrong direction. This is why the Activ-L eliminated the lateral movement of the core. Every mobile core device I’ve seen will do this. Properly implanted it’s much less of an issue. I’ve had 2 clients with M6 cervical discs explanted, one for problems much like I just described, another one for serious complications that may have been exacerbated for these reasons. (Yes, they were both Stenum patients. I know of a third, but I was not involved in the case. I did get to examine the explanted disc though.)

That brings us to the second picture. Notice how far the back of the upper plate is from the back of the vertebral body. Notice how the teeth of the plate are literally on top of the anterior margin of the vertebral body. There is the appearance of more vertebra because of an anterior osteophytes. This kind of alignment increases the risk of migration by many orders of magnitude. I see these types of films presented at the conferences as if they are a device issue, but this is not a device issue. The picture of the configuration before migration is one of a disaster waiting to happen. The surgeon should know that and be focused on proper placement. The doctors at Stenum say that there are anatomical reasons that may make it impossible to get the disc further back. That is absolute BS. I have NEVER seen this type of failure from any of the other surgeons I work with because they take care to get it right. Accepting sloppy work because you are lazy, hurried or just not careful may not cause problems most of the time. However, when the stakes are soooooo very high, accepting sloppy work may doom patients that would have otherwise been successful, to lives of pain, meds, revision surgeries and more.

After I went to Stenum with MrBee, I made excuses for them, saying that they are probably doing the surgery the way they were taught to do it years ago. The reply from one of my favorite surgeons was, “If you are a bricklayer or a librarian, that may be OK. But if you are an astronaut, an airline pilot, race care driver or a surgeon, you have to be learning all the time. That is not an excuse.”

Here is a picture that I extracted from the original Stenum-and-back website. This picture stayed up there for many years until the patient community got wise to what it really showed.



I want everyone to keep in mind that this is the image of a successful surgery. The author of the website may even be in better shape than me. They point to images like this as if it’s evidence that it’s OK to do surgery this way. However, you do NOT want any ADR implanted this way. If the patient’s disc was his pain generator and they took it out, he experiences success. If he gets away with the horrible placement, that is dumb luck, not appropriate surgical technique. At the conferences they discuss the sequelae of configurations like this: increased risk of complications like migration and subsidence. In addition, there is the expectation of accelerated wear and degeneration of posterior elements, possibly adjacent levels (due to inappropriate kinematics), AND of the prosthesis itself. It’s like driving with your tires out of alignment.

Does this mean it WILL happen? Absolutely not! All it does is increase your risk. Poor surgery does not guarantee failure just as perfect surgery does not guarantee success. If anyone wants to have poor surgery because it’s OK most of the time, I would suggest that they don’t fully understand the issues."

[Michelle Maree]

Could it be because it is a 3 level ADR?

Is prodisc not approved for 3 levels in the US yet?

Excuse me for being uninformed, but maybe that is part of it.

I guess some people think we are volunteering to be guinea pigs before all the studies have been done and confirmed that more than 2 levels is safe and replicatable.

There is always going to be huge risks envolved when dealing with cutting edge medicine especially where the spine is concerned.
With ADR we are all pioneers of relatively unchartered territory.

But when you are in constant pain, dont have a life and suicide sometimes seems like a good option, sometimes we are willing to take this risk especially when we see it has worked for others.

It is easy for others to think you have made a stupid mistake, but have they ever had a spinal injury and been in your position?

Im sad Steve that you were one it didnt work for but I think there is still hope and you will be helped soon.

Michelle.

[Cheryl]

Steve,

I continue to be amazed at how well you are handling this. I've felt like dirt, had the silent treatments as well with these spine doctors. Your feelings really hit home.

Great job, I wish you the best.


Cheryl

[Joe56]

Note to those considering older ball in socket designs which can get a bit out of control in multi-level cases, consider the M6 implant, it appears the new designs will have controled motion to help with this. I am looking at Stenum Hospital for 2-3 levels.

[JKDE302]

^ Joe56 do you know anyone who has the M6 implant...

[ans]

I don't stop by enough but read your nightmare story and am glad you're on the mend.

I never thought that bone stimulators' efficacy was questioned.

Good luck to you.

Best, Allan