Other German hospitals ?

[chasswen]

pro spine in bogen Dr. Bertagnoli cost means nothing when it comes to your well being period....
chuck

[Maria]

B13s,
Posters usually write about doctors/clinics/hospital/facilities they've gone to for consultations/treatment/surgery or are in some way familiar with be it contacts, localities and so forth.

If you'd like, share your info. Sure there will be interested readers!

Hope you had a good outcome with your surgery~ I've had 2 spine surgeries to date, more recommended but rather disasterous results long ago have me scared off more surgery (at least for now). Ever questionable when it comes to results w/spine surgery tho we each go with whomever we think is the best to do the job w/in our individual constraints (insurance, pocketbook, ability to travel, knowledge of where to go, etc).

Thanks for your initial post. It gave me something new to google and check out!

[dshobbies]

When talking about spinal surgeries, while cost is a definite consideration for most, we all want the best doctors and go where they practice. The facility is important but the choice of doctors is primary.

Dr.s Zeegars and Bertagnoli have the best reputations and most experience of not only those in Germany but throughout the world. This is not to say that other doctors aren't skilled from whom you could expect a favorable outcome. Both the above mentioned Dr.s operate out of the Alphaklinik and Dr. B also operates out of hospitals in Bogan and Straubing.

How about sharing some of your specifics? By your post, I assume you're doing better?

[B13s]

Well, after reading stories of others here and other forums - I should consider myself quite OK My first encounter with herniated disk was in 2004 - didn't even know what this means back then... Was playing with my son and did bizarre sideway run - next day couldn't move from the pain in the back and legs - thought that did something to my muscles, took painkillers, spend couple days in bed and started exercising and in a month or so was quite ok - only had leg pain from time to time - didn't go to any doctors at that time. Eventually decided that everything is back to normal and stopped my exercises. In 2006 back pain came back - this time I decided to go to see a specialist - and until this date still cannot decided if I made the right choice or not. Anyway first got only X-rays, injections (not ESI), massage etc. This didn't help at all, in fact I was getting worse. Got MRI done which showed huge central herniation, however doctors advised against operation at that time and sent me to rehabilitation instead. Tried ESI's but they didn't make any difference. One day I got real strong massage I couldn't stand straight anymore and next MRI showed that herniation increased again :/ In addition to pain being only in left leg I started having it in the right one as well. Since all this was going on for months already - doctors suggested to do operation. Initially I was also thinking about Alphaklinik, send my MRI's to them, got quotation (I think it was something like 8-9K euro), however at the same time I discovered German forum - and there Alphaklinik wasn't something spectacular - some had very good experience, some not, some had to be operated second time elsewhere. Also found some statistics that showed that patients after endoscopic operations had the highest probability to be operated second time. And also my insurance was covering only half the cost at Alphaklinik, so in the end I decided to look at my other options and decided to go with Orthozentrum München (not sure if I'm allowed to put links to other sites - but here you can see comparison between German hospitals regarding amount and kind of yearly spine operations http://www.diebandscheibe.de/umfragen/adressen_kh.php ). Operation lasted around 30 mins, went OK, however few weeks after it I started having burning pain in both of my legs - never had it before in my life. In addition to burning pain I started having leg muscles spasms, bizarre sensations etc. Got MRI done again which didn't show anything special except some scar tissue (btw. scar tissue is the biggest fear in German forum, I didn't see much about it here) - however it didn't explain pain in the right leg and next MRI couple months latter didn't show scar tissue anymore. Got my nerves measured (forgot how it's called - where they put needles in your muscles ) - that showed some delays but nothing extraordinary. Nobody could find anything... in the end I end-up with pain management doctor who put me on all sort of different stuff - Neurotin, Katadolon, Novalgin, Cymbalta etc. - not sure if they really helped or just made easier to deal with a pain - since I was half asleep most of the time. 6 months latter legs got better and I slowly stopped taking everything. I was feeling so great that decided that I'm fit enough to help my friend to fix his bike - and ended up with second herniation in the same place - however much smaller than first one and a month latter was again OK. And once again I had stupid idea that I'm fit and decided to carry my son on shoulders a bit... A week latter my long forgotten burning pain came back... And this is where I'm now - burning pain changing with extremely cold legs - not sure if it's related, but never had them before operation... Now exercise in the morning and the evening and consider options for the future since L4/L5 is completely black as well...

[fuzzy]

I thought the doctors charges are pretty regulated in Germany. So you must mean the hospital charges? Yes, I do prefer the single rooms, I am a grumpy introverted pesky thing, especially when I hurt.

I have studied many hospitals in Germany in fact one of the ones listed on that website is within shouting distance of my appartment in Hannover, I watch their helocopter land on the roof all the time and was operated there as a kid, very good place. But look as how many operations many of these places have done...Dr Zeegers (the adr surgeon) at Alpha wins sky high in experience over most (Bertagnoli also). That was an important reason to go there, not the money.

I had severe neurological leg problems for years, worse every year. It turned out that pieces of the L5 disc had made their way towards the nerves. Not all so obvious on MRI but Zeegers knew where the trouble was, the mri picture of a "mild" degeneration (US doctors) was enough to explain the trouble to Zeegers together with my complaint history. Leg problems were immediately better after surgery, not gone but are improving daily.

Experience experience...it could make the difference.

[B13s]

State doctors regulated - yes, private - sky is your limit What regulates charges are insurances - well, I won't talk about state... normal privates - up to x3.5 of the standard charge, super duper privates usually no limit, however its really hard to afford them if you have family and kids (if you are normal person that is )
I may also go for a second opinion to Alphaklinik if don't see any improvement, however from my experience patients with private insurance way too often are treated like a sack of money...

[mmglobal]

When I went to the AlphaKlinik 5 years ago, I was always waiting for the other shoe to drop. When was I going to discover what the real cost would be. I had the perception that a 2 level lumbar procedure in the US would be over 100K... the estimated price at the AK was 22K... soup to nuts. In the 5+ years since then, the price has gone up 50%... only because 22K Euros now costs $33K US. The prices now are in line with what they used to be. I've seen hundreds of people go there and found what I found. The other shoe never drops. No surprises. The price is reasonable and in line with other clinics. There is some "you get what you pay for" in going to the best... but in this case the difference in cost between the best and the others is miniscule. The cost of failed surgery has no upper limit financially and as far as I'm concerned, having lived through years of disability and failed spine surgeries, our lives are at stake. Going to the best is no guarantee of success and going to the worst still comes with substantial chance of success. However, I believe that going to the best increases one's chance of success. I used to think that 90% was a slam dunk... but I meet the problem patients every day. The toughest ones to watch are the ones who have problems that would have been avoided by going elsewhere. I was talking to Zeegers a couple of days ago and he was lamenting the fact that he's seeing so many complications that were unnecessary (placement, sizing, patient selection). "They are making the same mistakes that I made 15 years ago", he said.

I've seen an AK patient have serious problems at the hotel and get an hour visit by a doctor with a state of the art electronic backpack... ekg, body scan with a guided tour of all her organs, several meds, a couple of shots. We laughed about the bill... 190 euros.

I've seen a Pro-Spine patient need 2 nights in cardiac ICU and several treatments by cardiologist for a problem unrelated to the surgery. She checked out of the hospital expecting a bill with 10k more... we laughed about her having to pay 800 euros over the estimate.

I've got many more stories like this. I've also seen that the even though the doctor knows the patient's circumstances, the starving student who's brother mortgages his house and 401k to save his sister's live pays the same amount as the patient who flies in on his own Gulfstream G5.

I wish that in the US, healthcare was provided in an honest and upfront fashion. I don't have time now to post the horror stories of rescinded insurance payments or of patients who went were promised reasonable prices for cash pay patients, only to discover that they were on the hook for 30K more than they thought. I also know of reasonable cash pay prices in the US... I'm not saying that here is bad, there is good... I'm probably over reacting to a small point because I have so much experience with these clinics I've never seen anything but up front, as expected. Yes, people have to pay for services and having to do a 3 level instead of an expected 2 level costs more, but the delta cost is reasonable. I've not once seen $$ rolling in the eyes of the surgeons... private does not meen fleecing

I wish I could write more now.... gotta run.... all the best....

To all the new members... welcome... B13, I'm very pleased to hear of your success and hope to see the other clinic on one of my trips to Munich (I'm here now.)

BTW, I looked at the website that lists the clinic info. It's an interesting concept, but making decisions on internet info is somewhat dicey. (here too... and what I say too.... take everything you read with a grain of salt. The information listed regarding the AlphaKlinik has absolutely NOTHING to do with Hoogland and Zeegers' business. Dekkers operates a separate spine center and Toft operates a separate knee business. I don't know about the info on the other clinics, but the information on the AK is incorrect.

All the best... pain free vibes out in all directions.

Mark

PS... fuzzy... call my German cell before you leave Munich... I hope I get to see you standing up straight with a smile on your face.

[fuzzy]

I would like to add:

5 xays plus follow consultation with Dr. Zeegers at the Alphaklinik.

Cost $150 euros. Sounds very reasonable. The only thing they could charge extra for (they told me) over standard german rates is the fact that they have a digital xray, new technology, 5% extra. Even the privates are more regulated then one might think in germany. I was told his many times.

The xray job would have cost over $600 in the US. Xrays + required radiologist review + doctor visit.