L5-S1 ADR Revision...subsidence; Germany

[beka]

Hi there

I'm new to this particular board, but certainly not so to back pain and associated surgeries/procedures.

My worst pain is also upon sitting and it is just so frustrating and depressing. I don't know that mine has the intensity of yours, but when you struggle to ride in a car etc it limits your life so much. I do not work, and certainly could not manage out of home work. My sitting limit is about 20 - 30 mins, then I struggle to bear it.

What I really wanted to say though, is, has the suggestion been made that it is the vertebrae themselves hurting so much by having the ADR press in so hard when you sit?

The reason I suggest this is because, before my first fusion, I had complete degeneration of the disc at one level, and due to the vertebrae rubbing back and forth across one another, I had developed swelling in the vertabrae, known as Modic changes. This was extremely painful.

Additionally, when a bone is fractured, it is painful. Anyone who's had bone grafted from their hip for use in spinal fusion knows at times it can hurt worse than the fusion itself.

Bone hurts. Just my opinion but I'd be getting that thing out and going for a fusion if it ends up being deemed necessary.

Wishing you the best.

[jamie5136]

I had sitting pain before and now the three level ADR has made it worse, so something is pressing on something.... I just had another opinion on what to do. I will type it below. I want to see what people have to say. I have had so many opinons varying from posterior fusion at all three lower levels to DSS to this... all so confusing.

Okay, I have one more opinion, but still no focus on my sitting/laying pain. Dr. Scott Leary from California said to do an extraction of the sunken L5S1 level and then fuse. He must do this by going through my stomach and my back. He said a complete fusion cannot happen with just a posterior fusion. This does make sense, I suppose with the way the disc has subsided, plus why did it subside in the first place. Maybe I have some type of early bone condition that cannot be detected during surgery or on a bone density. Dr. Leary is young and has done a couple dozen extractions, but not of a Pro-Disc...this is scary!

I have been told that if a doctor does not know how to remove or is scared, then they will say, "keep it in." If they are removal guys, then they will want to remove it. Much like if you take your car to a muffler place when you are having a problem, magically, it is the muffler.


I have heard such horror stories with extraction and I could be left in a worse place than I am now. Now I can dance around, shop, hike, etc. I have leg pain now, 10 months after the 3-level ADR, but my MAIN issue is that I can't sit down... or lay down w/out having pain in the lowest part of the back that "feels" like tailbone pain... I have buttocks pain and NOW leg pain, which I did not have before, so something is changing in my back.

So, extraction and a fusion could make me worse with the dangers of not fusing or with some ventral issues.

So, I am now thouroughly confused! I could have a posterior fusion at L5S1 and "see" what happens and then do an anterior approach, but I heard this is much harder trying to do it after the fact. Although, this is what Dr. Bertagnoli suggested... he said try posterior first and then anterior. He did not say anterior and remove.



GOD, I WOULD RATHER BE HIKING, SHOPPING,.... ANYTHING NOW BUT FOCUS ON THIS!!!!



Any ideas?

Originally Posted by beka

Hi there

I'm new to this particular board, but certainly not so to back pain and associated surgeries/procedures.

My worst pain is also upon sitting and it is just so frustrating and depressing. I don't know that mine has the intensity of yours, but when you struggle to ride in a car etc it limits your life so much. I do not work, and certainly could not manage out of home work. My sitting limit is about 20 - 30 mins, then I struggle to bear it.

What I really wanted to say though, is, has the suggestion been made that it is the vertebrae themselves hurting so much by having the ADR press in so hard when you sit?

The reason I suggest this is because, before my first fusion, I had complete degeneration of the disc at one level, and due to the vertebrae rubbing back and forth across one another, I had developed swelling in the vertabrae, known as Modic changes. This was extremely painful.

Additionally, when a bone is fractured, it is painful. Anyone who's had bone grafted from their hip for use in spinal fusion knows at times it can hurt worse than the fusion itself.

Bone hurts. Just my opinion but I'd be getting that thing out and going for a fusion if it ends up being deemed necessary.

Wishing you the best.

[james]

I haven't been able to sit since 2006. I gave up my PhD after 4 years because of that. I was able to stand up and work, but now I have burning sensation on my sole feet and cannot stand up more tan 5-6 minutes. I hurt my knees in physical therapy, which makes standing even more difficult.

I lay down on my bed or coach most of the day. I have started mild exercise since few months ago.

When I sit, the back of me legs start burning like hell.

[dshobbies]

Hi James and welcome to the forum,

We know nothing about your circumstances. Why don't you start a new thread and tell us about what's going on. Five years of no sitting sounds like too long to do nothing.

Dale

[Maria]

Neither could I for years. Some of those years prior to spine surgery some and some after 2nd spine surgery (after first one I could sit but level above that started giving me probs).

Are you taking any medications? Neurontin helped me greatly with burning pain in buttocks/legs/feet. Was on 1800mg/day for 12 years for neuropathies and mostly burning type of pain.

As mentioned please start a new thread and tell us about your self if you're so inclined.

[james]

I was diagnosed with annular disk tear and DDD at L4/L5 in 2006. I had mild back pain and buttock pain at that time, when sitting.

Doctor referred me to physical therapist and the bPT managed to destroy my back. After therapy, I was in bed for the next 6 months, because of pain. I did not have insurance and was not able to afford doctors at that time (thanks to the US medical system).

After recovery I was not able to sit even a minute. When I sit I have burning and tingling on the back side of my both legs, from my back to my knees. I gave up sitting and tried to do my daily work standing or laying down on my stomach (this was a bad decision).

Right now I have mild back pain and extreme burning sensation on my feet sole when standing or walking. I take medication, but they don't help other than making me sleepy.

I have seen many doctors. They say they don't see the symptoms on the MRI. I am having another MRI soon.

Dr. Howard Tung in San Diego, wanted to fuse my disc, which I refused. Because the disc is degenerated, my options are ADR or fusion, but I try to avoid it as much a I can. Honestly, I don't have much faith on doctors. They do what is good for them, rather than what is good for the patient.


I do back exercise to strengthen my back muscles, including Plank, Cat-Camel and Medex machine. They don't alleviate the pain, but I am hoping exercise prevents herniation of other discs and preventing the L4/L5 to become worse.


I have cut lots of details, because I am not in mood now.

[Maria]

James,
So you've not had any surgery to date? That much sounds good to me if it's virgin territory no matter what's going on there. That's just my own opinion after 2 discectomies and then being worse off not better (rebulging, scar tissue, setting spine up for further surgery).

Whether I would have been better or not w/more surgery as was proposed I don't really know and I decided to go with not more surgery but only because I was feeling better than when I was seeking more surgery.

Like you I wasn't too trusting of surgery or in my case more surgery since what I had done seemed to have backfired (felt like backfire too) overall.

Then again I do read about many persons who in the pursuit of a better spine surgically after failed surgeries and/or continued problems actually get that so it seems to me that there are successes and there are failures. Hopefully if you were going for a surgical option your case would yield success.

I had horrific burning pain bilaterally in buttocks and down both legs into feet after my 2nd discectomy for 5 years which really scared me with regard to recurrence and/or recovering from either ADR or fusion and/or both (hybrid).

Oddly enough.. that pain now 19 years post my 2nd surgery is gone. I no longer take medication for that type of pain (still take low dose pain med 1x/day). I don't know if it's because L5S1 finally after many years (like 30 post original injury) autofused with complete dessication of that disc.

All I know is I'm so grateful to be where I'm at currently pain wise vs. where I have been. And I sit quite a bit more than I used to which is still not to say alot or like a normal person who has no limitations on sitting. Just enough to be able to feel like a halfway normal person most of the time before I remember that sitting bothers me or can kind of lay me out if I don't get up and move around. Not the terrible pain that used to just drag me to the depths of despair or was down and out impossible...

Have you talked to Mark here? Perhaps he could be of help to you at least just to talk to...