My 3 mo X ray - Discs tilted all over the place

[Bill1961]

Steve,

If the vertebrae are now "thin" one question you may want to ask... Is the surface of the vertebrae now to small for the ADR in place?

[mmglobal]

If the picture you uploaded is being used to demonstrate the 'thin' vertebrae, then we need to understand what we are looking at. That image is not a good a/p view of the area we are trying to see. It is very oblique.

If you think of plates for the prostheses like coins, when you are taking an a/p view, you want to see the image of the prostheses from an angle that shows a 'horizontal' view of the plates. If you take a picture of a quarter from a horizontal view (from the level of the table, with the quarter laying flat on the table; it will look like a line. If you take a top view, it will look like a circle. If you take an oblique view it will look like an oval.

When you are looking at an oblique view, there is no telling how those plates are sitting on the vertebral bodies.... you can't tell.

mark

[trkdoc714]

This will probably upset some people but here's my humble opinion:

First of all this is advice I would give to my son or my brother and it's intended to assist you in putting an end to your pain.

Why would you want to continue down the same path that's led you to where you are now? Your original surgeon has obviously turned his back on you. You went there for a 2 level and he gave you 3. The pathology may or may not have been present to perform such a risky surgery but especially with an unproven device (Nova). You also keep going to the same people for advice. These are the same people that aimed you down the path you're on now.

The process to implant both ProDisc and the Maverick both destroy bone to be implanted. The Nova destroys twice as much since it has two keels. The bone on 6 vertebral surfaces has been severely damaged and weakened the structures. I would hope a competent surgeon (and his medical tour guide) would have the character to admit their errors and point you in the direction to get you healed and not a direction to save them the embarrassment of having to admit fault.

I don't post here very often as I'm sure most know of my opinion and disdain of the purpose of this forum being for a business opportunity and not the well being of spine patients.

Bob

5 Months, 5 Days from successful Maverick ADRs at L4/5 and L5/S1 at Stenum Hospital by Dr. Karsten Ritter-Lang.

[dshobbies]

Yes Bob,

We all know your opinion and instead of offering anything constructive or positive, you choose only to provide negative and insulting posts. Though I usually refrain from these types of comments, you are not as asset to this forum or those posting here.

I believe Steve has made his point of view perfectly clear and if he or his 'medical tour guide' honestly believed an error was made and that this was not just an unfortunate happinstance as opposed to medical misjudgment, they both would be just as forthcoming.

Your posts serve no purpose here. This forum is about an exchange of ideas, suggestions and support. You provide neither. Your only purpose to post is to insult. You are the one not contrbuting to the well being of anyone, be it a spine patient or otherwise, for very selfish reasons. Negative criticism is useful when provided for the betterment of other posters but not when used for spite and maliciousness.

Mark, I know you don't taking banning posters lightly but this man contributes nothing close to the intent of this forum.

[Bill1961]

Maybe Bob's approach is a bit aggressive, but maybe he's trying to get Steve's attention. You have to admit if you brought your dog in for a surgery and you had this type of an outcome would you go back to the same vet.?

With that said this forum does put Dr. Bertagnoli on a pedestal. Many times I see postings as the "great" Dr. B., "The worlds best surgeon Dr. B." He may be a great surgeon, the are a lot of very good surgeons. I would say he is probably an outstanding representative for Pro Disc. Most of his trips to the states is probably somehow related to Synthis Pro Disc training. I doubt it's to train on another product. Of course this is just my observation.

So if everyone keeps calling him the "best", a patient could hold on to false hopes. In Steve's situation, his neck is messed up. No question he needs a very good surgeon. If I recall correctly he was close to getting in with Dr. Reagan a couple of months back but held off because Dr. B. recommended massage therapy.

So just recapping, the guy pays x dollars for 2 disks and that's changed to 3, he has a subsidence issue and Dr. B's assistant says it's urgent he goes back to Germany, then Dr. B. thinks it's not that bad and a massage is the solution. Now he's in great pain and desperate and still the go to guy is Dr. B.?

If anyone wants to give advice for a particular Dr., in this case you may want to throw some names out for Dr's who have performed extensive reconstruction. Again I am not questioning Dr. Bertagnoli's skills and I'm sure he has many successful surgery's but it may be time to get a couple of independent opinions. It seems like Steve has got one in Texas and now he'll get one from Dr. Reagan. So hopefully he'll make the best decision he can.

Everyone with an ADR is a pioneer. There will be many successes and many failures. This board should allow people like Bob to speak their mind. We can't all drink the cool aid.

[Katie]

Bob's statement wasn't so much negative as realistic. He's just pointing out the facts, and that may help Steve take another look at where he is heading. I think the Dr. Regan plan is in his best interests, and I hope he finally gets the deserved relief.

Steve, you almost sound Canadian, as we apologize to people who step on our toes, just to make sure no one is offended ;-) You have so much resting on this decision. Please go carefully and niceness be damned.

[steve55]

Well, I'm not at all offended by any of these opinionated posts. I did my homework prior to going with dr b. I saw way too many success stories to doubt his skills. I had a extremely hard time finding any negative outcomes on dr b. But somehow, I just had to be that rare statistic. I've been telling mark all along that I am leaning heavily with whatever dr Regan recommends. I got a quote of 23k for that surgery in MI with dr b for which I have a &6k deductible and a 70/30 out of network split. Also, dr b is not charging anything for his services. I believe syntheses is somehow reimbursing him something for the revision. Given that my humana reimburses at Medicare rates, it's likely I'll end up paying $15k or more to go this route. Dr Regan's quote has already confirmed $10k out of pocket after doing the preauthorization with my insurance. I guess I'm still leaning heavily with dr Regan. Mark is almost done uploading my images after which he will email dr Regan for me so I can get a phone consultation lined up, then maybe a surgery date.

[Kathy]

Steve,
I haven't been on this site in months, therefore don't really know what all is going on with your spine. I don't have time to read the whole thread; but will later. I just wanted to let you know that I live very close to you and would be more than willing to help you in anyway I can. Please send me a pm and I will do whatever to help, if that involves an ear to listen, going to see a specialists with you, etc. I stay at home with my kids (one is in school 5 days a week, the other goes 2 days a week), so I'm available pretty much all the time.

To the group,
I would like to address what Bob said. I completely agree with him. I also haven't been on here or sharing my recovery story, because I felt like Dr. B was on a pedestal and that since I didn't use him that I didn't qualify to be in the "in group". I also had some mean things said to me by members of the forum. I have talked to other members who have had the same thing happen to them. Whether this is intentional or not, it is still hurtful. I think everyone needs to be hyper-aware that we are all looking for answers and though we may have the same issues, we are going to come up with different solutions, and we need to respect others decisions and support them regardless of who does their surgery, where it is done or what is done.

Just my opinion,
Kathy

[dshobbies]

Bob,

I do not object to you expressing your opinion and/or suggestions as long as your intent is constructive. Unfortunately, your digs against Mark appear alongside your heartfelt compassion. You don't have to like the man or agree with his politics but as I've asked before, if you want to insult him, please do so privately. As Kathy stated, mean statements are hurtful. I would ask and expect the same decency from anyone posting on a public forum.

You should also know that I have absolutely no involvement with this forum other than as a member, just like you. My objections to your posts are as a reader, nothing more, nothing less. I would offer the same objections when directed against anyone.

Your motives do not appear to be altruistic. If you would like to discuss this further, please either PM me or start a new thread. And if you'd truly like to share your story with others, please leave out the offensive comments. I believe we'd all like to know how you're doing.

Dale

[Kathy]

Originally Posted by dshobbies

Bob,
As Kathy stated, mean statements are hurtful.

Let me clarify, I was not referring to Bob. I was referring to members of this board who said mean things to me and to others because we did not use Dr. B. One person was told that their disc failure was their fault, because they didn't use dr. B, this is ridiculous. We all make the best decision for us, that we can, with the information we have. Others should respect that decision.

I, personally, did not find Bob's comments offensive. He expressed his opinion, just like we all do everyday. It's not like he is trying to trick anyone, deceive, etc. He said what he thought, and we can chose to agree or disagree. There is no reason to get angry, it's just his opinion. I think the suggestion of banning him defeats the purpose of a forum where opinions are expressed everyday. That would be like banning someone because they only believed in fusion and you only believed in ADR, it's just a difference of opinion. Last, the reason most of us came to this site, was because we disagreed with the banning that happened on adrsupport, when people weren't allowed to express their opinion (and you can see it is now a ghost town). Banning does not help anyone, and just takes valuable people and input away.

Disclaimer: This is obviously, just my opinion and should be taken as such.

[fuzzy]

I never felt that I should not be on this forum because I don't use Dr. B. or even Mark's services. I didn't realize and don't see anywhere that there was such restriction. I never was told to go elsewhere because I feel a different surgeon is better for my job. Also I have made all my decision based on what I got from the surgeons themselves and their related specialties in addition to studies and would go to Ritter-Lang at Stenum if I felt his plan for me is one I agree with before I leave on the airplane, based on broad research, not just this group, or even Marks opinions in that particular matter.

I am absolutely sure Steve does the same. He researches and shares here his story, in hopes of helping others. Maybe picking up good advice from fellow spineys along the way (hopefully good words, not nasty things) There is absolutley nothing wrong with considering going back to the surgeon that did the troublesome surgery and I see nothing wrong with how Dr. B, offered to do a revision or even suggested to wait a little longer to see if there is improvment. There is also nothing wrong in getting a true second opinion from a top expert closer to home in the form of Dr. Regan.

I don't see anythng out of the ordinary in regards to the support that Mark may be providing. I am pretty sure Steve is an adult and capable of making educated decisions.

No one needs to be banned. Careful with some allegations or come up with facts!

[steve55]

Yea, I really dont see anything wrong with the strong opinions here thus far, certainly nothing was posted in this thread that deserves banning anyone over. I guess there are some accusations that Mark and this forum are biased to the point of pushing things or certain doctors on people, and I guess I can see how that will upset some people (who are friends of Mark) here who are offended by such an accusation towards him. I personally havent experienced anything like this from Mark. But I think the doctors he promotes seem to be the world's best in my opinion. Dr Regan for example, .....My local orthopedic surgeon said "I would go to Dr regan if I had have surgery for myself, he is one of the best in the country". He said that without mark's help, ok, LOL. He also said Dr B was one of the world's best with ADR, and of course, Dr B trains the docs here in the US and has done more of them than any doctor in the world, and my humana references Dr B more than any other doctor in the references section under their clinical policy bulletins covering ADR. Gee, I wonder why? Maybe cause Humana has determined that he is one of the best and foremost experts in this area of study? The TX back institute that Mark lists here is one of the pioneer's in ADR technology and they have extremely high succes rates. I think mark is on the ball with his preferred surgeon list, but he doesnt shove it down anyone's throat. So why shouldnt he promote who he honestly thinks is the best? Mark has always preceded his opinions and recommendations with "Im not a doctor or a medical expert, but I think..." or he says " In my opinion, I think ...blah blah blah. " He has never PUSHED any opinion or pressured anything on me. Though, as some say, he doesnt think too highly of Stenum. LOL. Oh well. Hey, everyone has the right to their opinions and Mark has his, others have theirs.Who cares. Lets not ban anyone if at all possible. Banning is for when one member attacks and insults another.

Anyways, I can tell you that this forum had ZERO to do with me CHoosing Dr B. ADR support is where I did most of my research. What made me decide on Dr B was only 1 thing, and that was from reading tons of success stories by people at ADR support after using Dr B. I could have just as easily chosen Stenum but there were too many stories(true or not) floating around about some disasters (yes, every surgeon has a few), and really, I did not see many patients at ADR support who posted about success at stenum. But Dr B's name was attached to every single success story I found over there. I had already made up my mind about Dr B being the surgeon I wanted before ever talking to mark or coming to this site.Actually, I think I got along with mark so well cause he and I felt the same about Dr B. I had already decided on him before coming here.

I also never felt Mark gave me a "hard sell" for any of his services. In my book, he is a laid back guy. I feel he does what he does because its a passion he has to help others. That's my impression, others obviously have different opinions. One thing for sure, he has connections and can make things happen. This much I have benefited from, and he has alot of knowledge and experience and advice that is extremely insightful.

Now, on to the most recent development. You guys wont believe today's developmements! Around 1 pm I get a call from the Wisconsin doctor's people with an update about the cost of my surgery with Dr B and Dr Sullivan as assitant. I was told that the old quote was based on a simple revison of an ADR. The new quote is corrected to account for ADR removal and conversion to fusion. For some reason , the Wisconsin doctor was thinking I only needed to fix the ADR. So, the new quote is $45,000. I was to pay $6K, then 30%. But , since the 70% paid by insurance was reimbursed at medicare rates, I would end up paying alot more of that 70% also. I was probably looking at $25K out of pocket. I said "No thanks". Then 40 minutes later I get a call back again saying that Dr Sullivan has spoken to Sytheses since then and found out that Syntheses is paying for EVERYTHING!! They will pay my deductible, airfare, EVERYTHING. WOnt cost me a penny. Now, I have yet to get this in writing, so Im not holding my breath just yet, but this is what I was told. When I initially heard this, the popular phrase from the movie godfather came to mind, ....."We're going to make you an offer you cant refuse". LOL. FREE is indeed very hard to refuse. And Dr B is clearly one of the world's best and Dr Sullivan aint no slouch either, I checked him out. So, I think Ill be in good hands with 2 docs. Given how 40 minutes later my surgery suddenly became free, I figured there is a high probability that this ADR removal is a training case for Dr Sullivan, and maybe he doesnt want it to slip away. The way this came down certainly makes it look that way, and I know most surgeons have no or little experience under their belt at participating in a cervical, or lumbar ADR removal as there are so few candidates who need it done. I dont know if thats the case, and I really dont care if it is. Im just escatic that its Free!! As long as Dr B is captain of the ship, I dont mind if it is the case that Dr Sullivan is particpating in a observation or training sort of way. Im still getting a 2nd opinion from another local surgeon here in Dallas this Friday, and since DrRegan is out of town, Im going to fly out to Los Angeles to see Dr Delamarter this Wednesday to get his opinion also. I just want some peace of mind that removal of C6/7 to fusion is the consensus and that Dr B isnt just on a one track mind. I was assured by Dr Sullivan's people that Dr Sullivan will provide a unbias opinion seperate from Dr B as to what is needed. Dont get me wrong, its not that I dont trust Dr B, but even the best in the world can be wrong at times, in fact, no matter who you are and how expert a doctor is, no one is 100% perfect all the time in diagnosis and recommendation. If anything, I can provide these 2nd opinions , if they differ, to dr B and Sullivan so they can take them into account in their prognosis and reccomendation as to what all I might need done. I wish and hope that the 2nd opinions agree with Dr B and dont agree with Dr Migniucci here in dallas who says I need all 3 ADR's removed and a corpedectemy done, which is big time stuff. Dr Mignucci is so certain I need more than just a C6/7 revision, he said he would not do surgery with that being the only thing done. This strong opinion really spooked me hence my desire for 2nd opinions. Lastly, it concerns me a little that Dr B hasnt acknowledged that he top ADR C4/5 isnt moving at all. Dr Mackenzie and Dr Mignucci both said it seems stuck in one position. You can see in my x rays in al the different flex positions(me looking up and down) that the darn thing doesnt ever move. One side is open and the other side is always closed. Even Mark seemed to observe the same thing and didnt have much to say about it. Both docs have admitted that it is slanted but they didnt use the word subsided. Im not sure if they think that top disc was like that from day 1 after surgery or if they think my vertebrae there has a natural slant and Dr B just worked it in with my natural slant as it was. I think Dr B told me that that was the case when we met at the airport. But he seemed hesitant to admit it wasnt functioning /moving as they are supposed to. So, now I wonder, will that top disc just act as a fusion then? Ill see what the 2nd opinions say about that and discuss such concerns once again with Dr B and Dr SUllivan. Anyways, Dr B did the initial surgery, and from what I can see, every doctor respects him as one of the world's best. So, I am confident in having him and Dr Sullivan handle this. So, I am set for a surgery date in Lacrosse Wisconsin of 9/22.